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Most desirable tubing for an XL touring bike ?

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Most desirable tubing for an XL touring bike ?

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Old 10-09-18, 09:07 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by jitenshajin View Post
Try bending aluminium back into shape without it fracturing. You can't. Try finding someone who can weld aluminium in a far flung place. You won't. The same applies to new-fangled materials like carbon fibre. Try repairing that if it fails.

The only answer is good old-fashioned, but tried and tested steel. Steel alloys have continuously evolved with the times, ever since good old Reynolds 531. With lighter, but stonger tubing, but still retaining the advantage of steel.

You can't beat the "feel of steel." Remember only "steel is real", especially in a touring bike. Where reliability and durability, are more important than anything else.
all my road bikes, touring bike, and gravel bike are steel. They span the 80s thru to the present and use multiple tubing models as well as diameters and butting profiles.

even I find your poetic waxing over the romantic idea of a steel frame touring bike to be over the top.
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Old 10-10-18, 11:30 AM
  #27  
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Rather than ask the forum to micromanage this,
crack that wallet open and get that build money out... 4 figures..


Tell experienced builders , of touring bikes , like Co.Motion, Size;
how big a frame you need, how heavy you are,
and how much you plan to carry , on tours
and leave it to them to pick the tubing brands, wall thickness, and diameters..

As they make tandems, they are experienced in this, also..





....
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Old 10-10-18, 11:52 AM
  #28  
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few have given it more thought than Trek and for 2019...


Ok, the most controversial change to the Trek 520 is the new aluminium fork. Really, a steel frame and aluminium fork?
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Old 10-10-18, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
1- a bike thats meant to handle weight well wont then feel lively when unloaded. Conversely, a bike thats meant to feel lively when unloaded wont handle weight as well.
Life just doesn't work that way.

2- with that said- quality double butted cromo tubing that is oversize(OS) works great for an XL size frame touring bike. 9/6/9 tubing is thin enough to feel fun when riding and thick enough to handle loaded touring.

- OS tubes are stiffer than traditional sized tubes.
- .9/.6/.9 will be great if the weight makes sense. A 220# rider with 40# of gear may be fine while a 260# rider with 40# of gear may feel some flex.
- .9/.6/.9 wont be as lively or as light as .8/.5/.8 tubing on the same bike.


you need to decide if you value the unloaded feel or the loaded feel more.

also- more important than material details is geometry. Geometry will affect how a bike feels when riding more than small tubing differences.
Ok, then. Let's talk ideal geometry for an XL frame with .9/.6/.9
Let's start with a seat tube angle of 73, chainstay at 450...what else ?

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Old 10-10-18, 07:19 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Ok, then. Let's talk ideal geometry for an XL frame with .9/.6/.9
Let's start with a seat tube angle of 73, chainstay at 450...what else ?
In addition to a relaxed head tube angle of... say, 72.5° or less (which is not unusual in many modern XL road bikes), a more generous seat tube angle -- for example, even less than 72° -- also is a very desirable geometry in a XL tour bike and goes well with the longer chain stays (which leads to a longer wheelbase)-- all of the old XL tour bikes had a wheelbase of >104... a body forward aerodynamic position such a using aerobars, a tight cockpit is okay but for a tour bike, a ride with longer legs needs a more relaxed seat tube to get the knees behind the pedal spindle in the power drive when cranking up a mountain with full panniers and even then, a setback seat post will be needed.
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Old 10-11-18, 10:14 AM
  #31  
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I (6'5", 230lbs) finished a fully-loaded tour this summer on my no-name aluminum touring frame with aluminum fork. My chum (6'4" 260 lbs) was riding a new brand name steel tourer. We tried eachothers bikes and he claimed to prefer my bike as he felt his was too flexy. My bike was also noticeable lighter when unloaded (my friend packed the kitchen sink as a place to keep the bathroom and laundry room sink he also packed, so loaded comparison is not valid).

In my experience, aluminum is a better material for heavy riders. Steel may be easier to repair, but aluminum, in my experience, is less likely to need repair.

Signed,
Lover of steel and classic bikes
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Old 10-11-18, 10:14 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Ok, then. Let's talk ideal geometry for an XL frame with .9/.6/.9
Let's start with a seat tube angle of 73, chainstay at 450...what else ?
73deg seat tube, 72.5 or 73deg head tube, 50 or 55mm fork rake(depending on head tube angle and style of riding) for stability under 30mph and for a nice front loaded rack setup.
depending on 72.5 or 73 HTA and 50 or 55mm fork rake- you will get a trail of between 49 and 58mm, the 49mm of trail is with 73HTA and 55mm fork rake for the least trail of the different combinations.


As for stack, reach, and bottom bracket height- all those would be dependent on the actual frame size needed. I would certainly want a taller head tube to allow for fewer spacers. most likely a 6degree sloping top tube to help with stack height and make mount/dismount easier.
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Old 10-11-18, 11:00 AM
  #33  
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Thanks for all the comments. Please critique this geo (XL/59 Rocky Mountain Sherpa 30);
TTL 630
HTA 69
HTL 130
STA 73
STL 508
CL 445
BBD30
REach 438
Stack 631
Standover 723
Wheelbase 1159
Tubing- Reynolds 725

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Old 10-11-18, 11:03 AM
  #34  
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Going to build it yourself ? consult this section; https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/
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Old 10-11-18, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Going to build it yourself ?
I just might do that now that my Soma Saga purchase seems to have fallen through.
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Old 10-11-18, 11:17 AM
  #36  
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You Braze or TIG weld ?
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Old 10-11-18, 05:43 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
You Braze or TIG weld ?
Bob
This may be a shock to you, but I'm not a frame builder...I interpreted yourself as having one custom built, but after checking it's out of my budget. Now,considering buying a Soma Saga frame and building it up...

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Old 10-11-18, 07:04 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Thanks for all the comments. Please critique this geo (XL/59 Rocky Mountain Sherpa 30);
TTL 630
HTA 69
HTL 130
STA 73
STL 508
CL 445
BBD30
REach 438
Stack 631
Standover 723
Wheelbase 1159
Tubing- Reynolds 725
63 is a pretty long top tube, especially for a 59... "XL" is more like a size 61 or more and it'd be pretty long for that size bike too-- that's a feature that Lemond road bikes exhibited and many commented about being too stretched out. Heat tube length would be much better over 200... maybe 230 or more on a XL
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Old 10-11-18, 07:55 PM
  #39  
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Without question the only touring bike I have ridden over 60cm in size with burdened with 40-50 lbs of gear that performed like a road bike was the old Cannondale Touring (This bike has been mentioned in an earlier post). They were magically competent loaded touring rigs.

Cannondale does have a touring model available now. It has updated tubing and design along with disc brakes. Rides like a road bike unloaded for sure. Have yet to load one up with gear, but I suspect it will do just fine. If you can find a vintage Cdale Touring frame in your size do consider it as they really were great bikes out on the road with gear.
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Old 10-12-18, 06:43 AM
  #40  
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So as a tall rider myself, 6’ 4” 190lbs, I tour on a 2016 Trek 520 Disc 63cm frame. Even when I have done my best to even out the load front to back and side to side I still experience a lot of frame “shimmy” at speeds over 14mph... The bike is built to handle a lot of weight but I don’t think they put much or any thought into the dynamics of the frame at the larger sizes. It’s sad when you feel unstable going down hill on a bike that is purpose built for loaded long distance touring.

I wish I would have considered AL or even (the ugly IMO) double top tubes of a rivendale... I still have some stuff I can try on this bike 1. A IRD double roller bearing headset and 2. probably a velo orange front wheel stabilizer. If that doesn’t work then I am out of luck and will probably sell the bike or just keep it around as a winter commuter.

I primarily own steel bikes except for a carbon fatbike, so I do appreciate the dampening qualities of steel but in this case it is to much of a good thing. I have mostly kept slient on people criticizing Treks choice for a AL fork on the new 520 but part of me wonders if it does stiffen things up a bit, especially on a bike with disc brakes that can be a good thing.
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Old 10-12-18, 07:00 AM
  #41  
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My touring bike is a 64cm frame from 1990. It has a 25.4 top tube and steerer and a 28.6 down tube and seat tube. Handles my 230# plus gear just fine. I have about 30# on it, give or take.

Everyone’s expectations for ride are different. Everyone’s perception of what is safe is different. Everyone’s level of comfort is different.
Etc etc etc.
There is no right or wrong frame design or tubing for a touring bike as its simply individual in nature and everyone like something a little different than others.

I mention all this because I often see claims that traditional tubing is too flexible and even sometimes see a comment that its flexible to the point of dangerous. I chuckle when I read that since I am in the high 90th% for height and weight and somehow manage to feel totally confident on a traditional tube sized touring bike that’s 64cm. I have never felt unsafe on it.
The tubing is splined, which creates a stiffer main triangle compared to un-splined tubing, but I would guess it’s a small bit stiffer and not something wildly dramatic to where it makes traditional diameter tubing as stiff as OS tubing or something like that.

Anyways, there are a lot of touring bike styles available and that matches perfectly with there also being a lot of touring riders who like different styles.
Nothing is perfect for everyone. Someone may love a huge OS downtube Cannondale touring frame. Someone may love a whippy 531 frame from the early 80s. etc etc.

For what its worth, I have a Cannondale Touring frame from about ’93. HUGE downtube that’s bazooka in size. Its hanging on a hook in my garage waiting to be built up…maybe this winter. No desire to use it for loaded touring due to the tire size limitation, but it should be fun to build into a canti-brake road bike. I will be interested to see how harsh the ride is given the tubing design and riding it unloaded.
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Old 10-12-18, 08:44 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
...
For what its worth, I have a Cannondale Touring frame from about ’93. HUGE downtube that’s bazooka in size. Its hanging on a hook in my garage waiting to be built up…maybe this winter. No desire to use it for loaded touring due to the tire size limitation, but it should be fun to build into a canti-brake road bike. I will be interested to see how harsh the ride is given the tubing design and riding it unloaded.
I am not sure what year my friends bike is from, but he has crossed the USA coast to coast three times on this bike, plus several other trips. When the photo was taken he had only done two cross country trips, was getting ready for his third. And he had only used bar end shifters for a couple of weeks when the photo was taken. His rear 9 speed brifter crapped out and he could not find a good replacement in time to start his next tour so he switched to bar ends.

If he did not like the bike, he would not have kept using it for all those trips.

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Old 10-12-18, 09:10 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
For what its worth, I have a Cannondale Touring frame from about ’93. HUGE downtube that’s bazooka in size. Its hanging on a hook in my garage waiting to be built up…maybe this winter. No desire to use it for loaded touring due to the tire size limitation, but it should be fun to build into a canti-brake road bike.
My daughter has a Cannondale Touring bike from around 2005 that takes 37 tires handily. She loves the soft ride, but doesn't do a lot of long rides on it. How big a tire are you looking to run?
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Old 10-12-18, 09:38 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I am not sure what year my friends bike is from, but he has crossed the USA coast to coast three times on this bike, plus several other trips.
If he did not like the bike, he would not have kept using it for all those trips.
Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
My daughter has a Cannondale Touring bike from around 2005 that takes 37 tires handily. She loves the soft ride, but doesn't do a lot of long rides on it. How big a tire are you looking to run?


Pretty sure its a T700 from '93. max is 32mm tires with fender or 35mm tires otherwise. Thats going off what remember when I measured over a year ago after buuing the frame.
Im sure itll be a fun ride once built up. Itll be interesting to ride it right before/after my touring bike to feel the difference in flex with that seemingly 60mm downtube.
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Old 10-12-18, 09:51 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Pretty sure its a T700 from '93. max is 32mm tires with fender or 35mm tires otherwise. Thats going off what remember when I measured over a year ago after buuing the frame.
Im sure itll be a fun ride once built up. Itll be interesting to ride it right before/after my touring bike to feel the difference in flex with that seemingly 60mm downtube.
My friends Cannondale that I posted the photo of (above in post number 42) usually has 35 or 37mm tires inside the fenders. So, perhaps his is newer. I do not think he started touring until this century, so his Cannondale is probably roughly 10 years newer than yours.

Another friend of mine had an early Cannondale touring bike, but it took 27 inch tires. He no longer has that bike. I think that bike also had a freewheel instead of cassette.

My Lynskey Backroad has a downtube that measures about 1.75 inches in diameter.
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Old 10-12-18, 02:26 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Bob,
This may be a shock to you, but I'm not a frame builder...I interpreted yourself as having one custom built, but after

checking it's out of my budget. Now,considering buying a Soma Saga frame and building it up...

I was not Either, but after gaining brazing and metalworking skills,
being mechanically inclined father in metal trades, my bike shop jobs, etc
I gave it a try.,

worked out OK.. I did not try making a business out of it...

Soma , surly, salsa, Trek 520, will all get you down the road.. carrying your stuff.

so in the end you just turn over all the 'most desirable materials' choices,
to the company, importing the frames from a big company in Taiwan,
probably Maxway ,
a big OEM factory all of the above have gone to for many years ,
because they're good an it and beat the costs
of doing it in the States..




....

Last edited by fietsbob; 10-12-18 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-12-18, 07:44 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by jitenshajin View Post
Where are you going to get the fibreglass from?

If you could get fibreglass, how effective would it be especially if the rear drop out had snapped. This tends to be the part of the frame under most stress. I have had a few frames fail in that particular place, rather than anywhere else. There is not much space between the drop out and the hub, which needs to rotate freely with no fouling.

You often see touring cycles massively loaded on the rear, with little on the front. Surely, that is asking for trouble, especially if the rider is heavy.

Personally, I would try and find the bloke with the two car batteries and a stick welder. He might make a rough repair, but hopefully it would hold and you can have a proper frame repair later.

If I had the choice of a fibreglass repair, which is epoxy resin (basically plastic), with small strands of glass in it. Or a repair using steel, which is much stronger and that the bike is already made out of. I would choose steel every time.

Actually a couple dozen ft of 1mm kevlar line and a couple tubes of epoxy could make a good mend where applicable. My experience is that purpose bult bikes very rarely fail. Can’t beat some of the early 80’s mtn bikes with big tubes.
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Old 10-12-18, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Ok, then. Let's talk ideal geometry for an XL frame with .9/.6/.9
Let's start with a seat tube angle of 73, chainstay at 450...what else ?
To reinforce what fietsbob said tell the builder what your intended use is and what you like to do then leave the geometry to him. Speaking as soneone who knew frame builders, toured a lot and raced a bit and had dozens of bikes and a couple custom steel frames. The frame builder has more experience seeing the results of their ideas than a riders extrapolations.
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Old 10-13-18, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 1-track-mind View Post
Interested in hearing opinions on the preferred tubing (past or present) for an XL bike as far as handling under a load and being somewhat lively unloaded? Which current production bikes have tubing other than 4130 ?
I read your post when you first started it and have read through a couple more times as comments have been made. I am not one to recommend what I have just because I have it, but in this case I think it is what you are looking for. I can guarantee you that the Lynskey Backroad is more than stiff enough in an XL. Lively is somewhat more subjective. I don't consider mine lively in the sense that my Tarmac was, I do however consider it responsive. Pleasantly so. They go on sale for close to $1000 from time to time. I got mine for $899. Here's my build thread. Lynskey Backroad Build
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Old 10-13-18, 07:08 AM
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Shame that the OP is unlikely to consider aluminum, despite the positive reports in this thread from bigger riders who have toured on Cannondales and found them superior to steel-framed bikes. They remind me of the 285-pound weightlifter who bought a Cannondale from me and stopped by the bike shop a few weeks later to tell me how happy he was with it. He said that it was the first bike he'd ridden that didn't feel like overcooked spaghetti under him.
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